ceiling fan install/no existing light fixture

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

Dkerr,

Since I have successfully installed three ceiling fans with lights under your direction... now I want to do the same in my living room. Like the previous installations I do not have an existing light fixture, just a wall switch. The main difference is that I have two switches that can be accessed from different locations (one switch near the front door and one switch near the hallway that control the same outlet in the living room. Is this possible for me (the novice do it yourselfer) to wire this ceiling fan/light with this configuration? If it is possible, does it matter which switch I connect to (the hallway or front entry one)?

Also the switch near my front door is already in a double gang box ..the other switch operating an exterior light.

The other switch near the hallway is also in a double gang box ..the other switch operating the hall light.

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

Thanks for coming back. You made it through the other projects ok, this is a slightly different twist but I think you can do it.

First you currently have 2 3-way switches that control the existing outlet. As before I need some information ....

1. the existing outlet that is switched, is both halfs of the plug switched or only half of the plug switched. I assume it is only the one plug that is currently switched.
How many wire cables are entering the switched plug. Each wire cable would have a black/white/bare, or it could be a black/red/white/bare.Which wires are conencted to the switch and connected inside the box.

2. It is again a fan/light combo that yoy are installing and do you want them separately switch, remember you already have a double gang box at both switch locations, adding a third switch/triple gang box at one location or both ??? There is a couple of possibilies....

a. switch fan and light together.

b. use a triple at one location where the fan will only be controlled at one location only, and the light at 2 locations.

c. both fan and light separately switched at both locations. May mean a triple box at 2 locations. Or arrange for an existing double and a single box at slightly differnt locations on the wall.


3. I will need to know how many wire cables are entering switch Box A at the door location, and switch Box B at the hallway location. Again each cable will be black/white/bare or black/red/white/bare. What wires are conencted to the switch itself, and which wires are connected together ion the box.

For the duration of this project lets keep some common reference points so we both are clear thru out this.

SWITCH BOX A - AT THE DOOR LOCATION (currently a double gang box - 2 switches)
-switch 1 of box A is the 3-way switch currently controlling the outlet plug (or at least half of it)
-switch 2 of box A is switching the exterior light.


SWITCH BOX B - AT THE HALLWAY LOCATION (OR NEAR THE HALLWAY)
-switch 1- is the 3-way also currently controlling the outlet plug (or half od it).
-switch 2 controlling the hall light.

You may want to reference you wire cables entering each box somehow , like black from cable one is connected to switch 1. Or black from cable 2 is connected to the common screw of switch 2. You get the idea. It just makes it easilier for both you and me to make our info clear.

The last thing Linda what else is on that circuit (the same circuit that the switch is controlling the existing outlet on. I just don't want to max out an existing circuit any of the other fans our on the same circuit. If you still have the boxes and info that came with the other fan/lights that you installed it may may indicate the current draw for that fixture.

Since you seem to follow instructions very well, and you accomplish your other project successfully , I have faith that if you did that , you can do this.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

Well this seems like it installation may be more complicated, but I will try to provide all the pieces of this puzzle. I may have provided more information than was necessary. I hope this will not overwelm you as I feel like I've written a book.

In addition to switch box A at the door location and switch box B at the hallway location, I also have a single wall switch that is located directly under the double gang box switch A. This single switch operates an exterior flood light. I will refer to this single flood switch as Switch Box C. It seems this flood light was added after the fact, but I'm not sure.

Also as far as the switched outlet is concerned, both halves are controlled by a wall switch. Note that there is another outlet that is closer in proximity to switch Box A, and I believe this unswitched outlet is providing power to the switch box C and switch 2 of box A. I say this because there are three cables entering this unswitched outlet (black, white and ground) two of the white wires are connected to the silver screws, the other white is pushed into the quick connect thing on the back of the outlet, the same is repeated for the three black wires except that they are connected to the brass screws and one black wire is quick connected on the back of the outlet.

FOR THE SWITCHED OUTLET: (both halves are switched) there are three cables entering this box as well....(black, white, ground). Cable one enters on the left side of the switched outlet and is connected as follows: white to the silver screw on the outlet, black wire is pigtailed to black wire from cable 2 along with white wire from cable three..and not connected to anything. Cable two enters the box on the right side ..the white wire is connected to the silver screw on the outlet. Cable three enters the box on the right side ...black wire is connected to brass screw on the outlet. Grounds are all twisted together and not connected to the ground screw.

SWITCH BOX A- DOOR LOCATION: There are four sets of cables entering this box. Switch 1 & Switch 2 are wired independently from one another. In addition to that there's one (unsheathed) cable entering this gang box from the top (coming from the ceiling) and exiting the bottom of the gang box..it's not connected to anything in box A. I believe this unsheathed cable is powering the flood light and enters the single box switch C as the flood cable wire orinates in the attic.
switch 1 box A AT DOOR LOCATION: One cable (three wires white,black, ground)originates from the bottom of the box and connected as follows: black to screw on the right side of switch 1, white is pigtailed to black on other set of cable wires (which enters through the top of the gang box) and not connected to anything... this other set of cable has black, red, white and ground. It's connected as follows white to right side of switch 1, red to left side of switch 1. The grounds are twisted together with the grounds from switch 2 and not connected to anything.

Switch 2 box AT DOOR LOCATION: there are two sets of cables (white, black, ground) connected to switch two. One set of cables enters the box from the ceiling location (I will assume that this cable feeds the outdoor light fixture) and connects as follows: black to screw on right side of switch 2, white is pigtailed to other white wire that enters from the bottom of the box and not connected to anything. The other set of wires enters the gang box from the bottom. With the (black) wire connected to other screw on the right side of switch 2.


SWITCH BOX B- AT THE HALLWAY LOCATION- Switch 1 and two are wired independently from one another.
SWITCH 1 - Also Controls the entire outlet plug. One set of cable wires (black, white, red and ground) are connected to this switch. Red and black are connected to the right side of switch 1 box B. White is connected to left side of switch 1 box b.
SWITCH 2 - Controls the hallway light. Please note that switch 2 is powered by a different circuit breaker. One set of cable wires (black, white, red and ground) are connected to this switch and connected in the same same manner as switch 1 box b.

There are 6 outlets, one exterior flood, & one exterior light on this 15 amp circuit. As far as how this fan/light will operate, I can live with the method A -Switch fan and light together. Will I have to run wire from both switches Box A & B and to the ceiling fan? ..that's the part I'm unclear about (remember I'm a novice at this)!

Also any tips or tricks of the trade would be greatly appreciated on how to fish cable inside of an insulated wall.

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

This will be fairly easy, you will only have to run 1 new wire cable between the hallway SWITCH BOX B location to the ceiling location wires will have to rewired at BOX A and at the outlet location. What is the size of the one exterior flood on this circuit (watts), and the other exterior light. I would imagine that the 1 exterior light is not over 60 watts and the flood is not over 100 watts. If there are not excessively high watt bulbs there should not be a problem.

Again both fan & light on the same switch that you want, correct ? that will be the easiliest , if you want fan and light switched separately it can be done but with more work, and wiring. Both switched together will be the easilier of the 2 senereos.

I will post with the wiring details based on both fan/light together unless you post otherwise. In this option the wire from the plug will be converted to an always on state , the switch wire to an circuit supply wire going to Box A and the wiring changed at box A and Box B, new wire to ceiling at box B hallway.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

I will have to get back to this evening on the wattage of the bulbs for the flood and exterior light.

Yes I want both the fan and light on the same switch. Yes, I realize that I would have to wire the switched outlet to be in an always on state.. tried to bypass that step in my daughters ceiling fan installation and could n't understand why the ceiling fan/light wouldn't work. Live and Learn!

Remember I'm the novice electrician when you post your instructions for wiring all this. Thanks a lot for your time!

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

Before any work is done switch off the breakers of all the circuits that is present at either BOX A, B and currently switched outlet plug, we don't want any live wires that you could brush against in these boxes.

At the currently switched plug that BOX A switch 1, and BOX B switch 1 is controlling...
All blacks are together and short black to brass color screw of plug. All whites together and short white to silver color screw of plug. grounds together and grounded to box as well as grounding screw of plug.

At Door location Box A, we deal only with 2 cables, that has 1 or more wires currently connected at switch 1...
anything currently connected to any other switch , we don't touch...
the red/black/white cable that has 2 of its wires connected to switch 1 is the cable that is being routed to switch 1 of Box B (hallway location). the other cable black/white/bare that currently has 1 wire on switch 1 that is now a circuit power supply cable coming from the plug that was just converted, I will refer to the wires in this cable as circuit black and circuit white. Disconnect the wires of these 2 cables only from where they are all connected now, make sure anything else connected in this box stays connected as it is.

Circuit white is connected to white of the cable going to BOX B (remember that cable has black/red/white/bare and had previously had some wires on switch 1 of box A).
Circuit black to the common screw of switch 1 BOX A.
the other 2 wires of the cable going to box b that is black & red go to the other 2 screw of switch 1.

AT Box B switch 1 (hallway location - switch previously controlling plug)...
run a wire cable (black/white/bare)from here to the ceiling location.
The black going to light connects to the common screw of switch 1 box B.
The white from light and white coming from Box A (the black/red/white/bare cable) connect together.
the black and red wires of the cable from box A connect to the other 2 screw of the 3-way switch.

bare wires are always together and grounded to box.

At the fan/light location is the same as before except the fan and light hots are both connected to the wire coming from switch 1 Box B (hallway), white serves as neutral connection for both fan/light and connect to its white, bares and any green wires are connected together and grounded to box.

We only deal at BOX A and BOX B with the wire cables that had 1 or more wire connected to the switch before, only those cables we are touching, if the cable had no connections to switch 1 at BOX A OR B, we leave as it is now. Plus of course the new wire that is going from Box B (hallway) to light/fan location at ceiling.

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

At the fan the black wire connect to both the fan and light hot wire. The white connects to the white at the fan/light combo. ground wires and any green wires together and grounded to box.

The plug as stated in my previous message converted as instructed to an always on state and tehreby in the process make the wire cable going from plug to box A a circuit power supply cable.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

The wattage on the exterior light is 60, I'm not sure about the exterior flood but I would guess that it's 100 watts, but there are two bulbs on this flood light. Thanks very much for the diagram. I plan to work on this this weekend. I will let you know the outcome! I'm sure I will be successful.

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

You should do fine unless you have some heavy power users on this circuit like microwaves, air conditioners, freezers.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

D. Kerr,

I have been looking over the instructions for the latest ceiling fan/light installation and I have one question (Brace your self and try not to chuckle!). Your instructions refer to a common screw on a wall switch that can be operated in two different location (I think these are called three way switches). Which screw is the common screw on these type wall switches?

Thanks!
Reply With QuoteReply With Quote

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

On 3-way switches there are 3 main connection screws. I am just looking at 1 now, and on the one that I have there is 1 screw that is darker in color than the other 2, also on the back of the switch there is some fine print that says common beside this darker screw, the print is small , and you need it at the right angle and light to read it.

You are only dealing with one side of the line at the switch therefore no possibility of any short with a error in wiring at the switch , it just won't switch on and off properly at the 2 locations unless the common of each switch has the correct wire on it.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

I just wanted to post back. I finally finished the last of my ceiling fan installs. I'm happy to say thanks to you... I was successful!

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

That's good news, You are a great DIY'er.

[transferguy]

Posted By: wyrmrider

Don et all
great thread
AS to your website, I was given the link from another electrical code forum
as to this thread and your tips on plugs I think you should mention the hazard of shared neutrals even when one breaker is off but the neutral is still energized.
Ever have a fridge come one the red line while on a ladder removing a broken bulb (with the wall switch and black line breaker off)?
Or the even more frequent hazard while replacing switches and plugs-- remind that pigtails are required on plugs and neutrals so that the neutral is not interrupted
frequently there is more than one circuit in the switchbox (both red leg and black leg even-though only one feeds the switch)

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

Thanks for your comments, I still have a way to go in finishing the website, I am vacationing in Las Vegas , right now but will be getting back to writing more on it and getting back to it soon. It is a new site so hope to gain more activity on these forums as time goes on and ranking increases on the search engines