ceiling fan install/no existing light fixture

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

I want to install a ceiling fan with a light kit in a bedroom of my home. The problem is that there is no existing ceiling light fixture where I want this ceiling fan/light to go. I do have a wall switch that controls one entire outlet. I have an accessible unfinished attic and have already installed a ceiling fan electric box between the ceiling joist and cut the hole in the ceiling for the box. Now what do I do?

I would like to be able to turn on the wall switch and this would control the ceiling fan light, and I would like to be able to use the pull chain to operate the fan. However, I would like the option of using either the ceiling fan or the ceiling fan light independent of one another. How do I accomplish this. Or should I hire a pro?

Help!!

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

Hi jbanks
Welcome to our forums

This can be accomplish , before I give you instructions I would like to know your current source of circuit power for the current switch & plug. To find this I need you to take the cover off of the existing switch, (turn off power to the circuit) you will likely have to unscrew andpull out the switch some to get a clear view on the box, tell me if there is one wire cable entering the switch box or 2 wire cables entering the switch box, and also tell me the color of the wire attached to the screws of the switch; if the switch is a basic 2-way switch then there will either be 2 blacks attached or a black and a white.

At the plug that is switched, do the same thing, tell me how many wire cables are entering the box, and look on the screws of the plug , there is a metal joining tab joing the 2 screws on each side of the plug, are these both intact or is the joining tab broke off on one side of the plug.

Each wire cable consists of a black/white and bare. Unless it is split plug or 3-way switch which could have an additional wire red.

Should there be different colors than mentioned then tell me what you have have, where, connected to what.

Once I have that info I can give you the gusome details.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

DKerr....Thank you very much for taking the time to reply. I'm at work right now, however I will provide this information to you asap.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

Here is the information you requested.

For the light switch there is one cable comming into the box with a black, white and a ground wire. There is one set of terminals on the switch with a white wire connected to one terminal and black wire connected to the other terminal. The ground is connected to the grounding screw.

For the outlet: there are two separate cables coming into the box. Each has three wires (black, white, and ground).

For the one set of the cables: the white wire is connected to the top left side terminal on the outlet. The black wire is pigtailed together with the white wire from the other set of cables and not connected to anything.

For the other set of cables: the black wire is connected to the top terminal on the right side of the outlet. The ground wires are twisted together from both sets of cables and connected to the grounding screw. See previous paragraph for the location of the white wire.

Thank you!

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

our source of circuit power is coming into the plug location.

I only have one more question then I will tell all...

Even if you use the pull strings at the fan , you can control the light and fan on separate pull spring, but if you want to be able to turn on and off the fan and always be able to turn on off the light at the switch regardless if the fan is on or off then you will need 2 switches. because with a single switch you will also switch the fan off when the light is turned off at the switch.

I assume you would want the existing outlet plug converted to an always on state, and the switch to control the ceiling fan/light combo.

If you want to install 2 switches , install it at the existing switch location, replacing the single box with a double box, only one new wire cable needs to be run and that is from the existing switch location to the ceiling box location. If you stick with using only the 1 switch then a 2 wire(black,white) +bare ground cable would be run, if you decide on a 2 switch setup then a 3 wire (black/red/white)+bare would be run from the existing switch box location to the ceiling box.

It might also be a good idea to run a 3 wire (black/red/white)+bare even if you do decide on using only 1 switch , and cap the red at either end, that will make like easilier if at a later date you decide to go the 2 switch route, or add a wall speed control.

I also thank you for you very clear description of the wiring I asked for.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

You assume correctly I want the existing outlet plug converted to an always on state and the switch to just control the ceiling fan/light combo. How do I accomplish that?

I think I will install the double box/two switch set up. I understand that I will need another switch and a bigger box. I also understand that I will run a 3 wire (black/red/white and bare) from the second switch to the ceiling box. Dont I need to tie this second switch into the first switch somehow? Please explain how?

Thank you for your prompt reply.

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

Thank you I have all the info I need, I will post you step by step details on how to do this in a few minutes.

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

Good evening, here we go...

1st switch off the circuit breaker for this circuit before starting.

At the existing outlet (plug) box, remove the wires from the existing plug, disconnected all wires that are currently connected together here. Now the black from one cable connects to the black from the other cable and a short piece of black wire going to the brass color screw of plug. The white wire from one cable connects to the white wire from the other cable and a short piece of white wire going to the silver color screw of plug. All bare wires together and grounded to grounding screw of box and connected to the grounding screw of plug (possibly greeen).
Put an insulated wire nut over the wire connections.

That will finish the work at the existing plug, and put the plug in an always on state.

Now at the switch , remove the switch. You will have to replace the current single box with a double box , so that 2 switches can be mounted into the box.

From this double switch box, run a 3 wire + bare from the switch location to the light/fan location.

I will refer to the switch controlling the light as switch 1, and the switch controlling the fan as switch 2 both at the same double box that 2 switches will be insatlled in.

The wire that previously was in the switch box (coming from the plug) that cables wires will now be refered as cirucit black, circuit white.

...

Connect circuit white to white going to fan/light location.

Connect 2 short black wires to cicuit black. Put an insulated wire nut over the connection.

1 of the short black wires connect to one screw of screw 1, and the other short black wire connect to one screw of switch 2.

the black wire going to ceiling fan/light connects to the otehr screw of switch 1, the red going to ceiling fan/light goes to the other screw of switch 2.

All ground bare wires together and grounded to grounding screw of box.

At the ceiling fan/light location, the white serves as a neutral for both light and fan, the black is the hot to connect for the light, and the red serves as the hot that connects to the hot of the fan.

Please read carefully the wiring instructions that came with the light/fan, as this will give the wiring details for the light/fan itself, and further questions, please ask.

You biggest challenge is likely feeding the new wire thru the wall, and you will likely have to open the drywall up a bit to change from a single switch box to a double switch box, then repatch, if it is done properly it will be a good job in the end.

Switch 2 is an on/off for the fan, forward/reverse is by the pull string, speed control is by the pull string, leave the light pull string always on, so that it is always controlled by the wall switch.

There is speed controls that are available that can replace switch2 to contol fan speed, read documentation that came with the light/fan unit for advice on that, or just stay with the switch, and control fan speed at the pull string.

Let me know how it goes...

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

Thank you very much for all your time. I plan to work on this soon. I will let you know how I did.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

I need your help! I had to work most of today so I was only able to attack converting the existing switched outlet to an always on outlet.

I did exactly as instructed in the previous reply....disconnected all the wires to the exisiting outlet, and pigtailed a small piece of black wire to the other two black wires capped with a wire nut. I then attached this one pigtailed black wire to the brass screw terminal on the outlet. I repeated the same thing for the white wires but attached to the silver screw termninalon the outlet. I connected all the grounds together and attached to the outlet green screw. Restored the power and everything worked greatt...UNTIL I turned the wall switch off and on.

I lost power immediately and tripped the breaker. I restored the power at the breaker and still none of the outlest worked except for one outlet in the room. My outlet tester indicates that the "Hot/ground Reversed". In frustration I (Attempted to)reconnected the outlet like it was before I started working on it. I'm still getting the same indication on the outlet tester ("Hot/ground reversed) and none of the outlets with the exception of one outlet are working. (Anyone have an extension cord???) WHAT NOW?????
Last edited by jbanks; 05-24-2012 at 02:49 AM.

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

The whole procedure was based on a completed project , when you changed as per my instuctions the existing plug, the next step was to remove the wires from the wall switch, without removing the wires and reconfiguring the wall switch you will create a dead short when the switch is on. The new wiring configuration at the existing plug made the existing plug in an always on state but also made the the wire from the existing plug to the wall switch a ciruit power supply wire, not a switch wire, without removing that part from the wall switch and do that part of the procedure , the wall switch will cause a dead short when switched on.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

Please bear with me as I'm just a do it yourselfer.

I guess my question is.... have I damaged the switch or outlets in any way? If I have reconnected the outlet back to the way it was before I started changing everything WHY are none of the outlets working? That in itself worries me.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, if I am able to get this whole thing wired ceiling fan/light and outlet as per your previous instructions, it all should work! My little mistake has wounded my confidence and ego to say the least. Thank you for being patient and replying back.

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

Don't worry, I propably should have stated before that it could not be done in separate stages. It is not the worse thing that I have seen happened.

Ok what I would like you to do here since we are looking down the road at a completed project, is to first make sure the breaker is off, now remove the light switch completely and use an insulator wire nut on the white and black wires entering that box, so that these wires are not connected to anything, and 1 wire nut is on each wire to prevent them from touching anything or each other, and then push the wires carefully into the box and put a cover on it. Now go to that existing plug location that you were working on before, do like you already tried and follow my proceedure for the existing plug. Black to black and short black to brass color screw of plug, white to white and short white going to silver color screw of plug. bare together and grounde dto grounding scrw of box and grounding screw of plug (possibly green). Now this should give that plug as stated before an always on state, the wire going to the switch is now a circuit supply wire cable to used with switches and fan/light portion.

Damage ? well hopefully the breaker was tripped fast enough that no damage occured, plugs and switches are cheap, look for burned or black areas of the plug, like I said hopefully it triggered the breaker fast enough that you got away with it. That is the breakers purpose to hopefully provide the weekest link in the circuit so it is the first to go.

Once you have done this turn the breaker on, if no power turn the breaker fully off and then back on.

What I am aiming for here is to get step 1 of the procedure working perfectly and that plug changed to an always on state, and to protect the same thing from happening again by removing the switch and protecting those wires with an insulation wire nut, 1 nut on each wire.

We will confirm and make sure that everything else is working as before , before moving on.

Does everything work now. Repost and we will take it from there.

[transferguy]

Posted By: jbanks

I removed the light switch completely and put one wire nut on each wire (one on the black wire and a seperate wire nut on the white wire). Tucked it all back in the box.

I went back to the outlet (I bought an new outlet even though it showed no signs of burning or damage) and and connected black to black with a little wire and connected to the brass terminal. Connected the white to white with a little wire and connected to the silver screw. The grounds were twisted together and went to the ground screw on the outlet. There is no grounding screw in the (plastic) box to connect to. Turned on the power and nothing is working. The outlet tester still indicates Hot/Ground Reverse situation. The Neon circuit tester is not lighting when placed in the outlet even though the power is on. This problem not working problem is affecting all the outlets in this room and several in the next bedroom. Until I can remedy this situation I have been keeping the power turned off at the breaker because I don't know if this is an unsafe situation or not.

Thank you your replies they are very easy to understand for the Do it your selfer.

[transferguy]

Posted By: dkerr

First of don 't panic, you will be ok, we know that when you orginally followed the proceedure and turned back on the power everything was well until you switched on the switch, correct ?

Now we have taken the switch out of the equation, and you again returned the outlet plug to the way I instructed you do it ? Now you say that the plugs in this room and several in the next bedroom are out, are these the only plugs or lights in the house that is affected ?

Account for all that is not working with this circuit off, from what you appear to have stated to it was only plugs that is affected not lights. Anyone of the non-working plugs could be a problem. Especially if the plug is being used to continue the circuit instead of the pigtail method.

Plugs have 2 methods of connection, the push in pinch type , and the screw connections on the side of the plug, I usually recommend using only the screw type connections as they are less problems than the push in pinch connections.

Make sure if there is GFI plugs anywhere on the circuit , (they are the ones that have a test & reset button on the plug itself) that the reset button is pushed in. If no GFI then tell me that also.

Turn off the circuit should have ease your mind.

One more question note which plugs are not working when the breaker is on, then note which plugs are not working when the breaker is off. The reason for that is that I am trying to determine where the circuit is broken, lets say 1 plug works in the other room when the breaken is on , and the plug does not work when the breaker is off. Checking that plug and the nearest plug that doesn't work may be the first place to look. Do you have a voltage tester , you appear to have one that you plug into the outlet to test, but do you have one that you can just touch 2 wires with to check for voltage, just a cheap one will do.

I will work with you until this is repared and your project is complete, so its not the end of the world.

Repost and then we proceed to check the other plug locations, give me the answers to these questions first.